Last month, Yuval Keshtcher and Andrew Astleford held a session on "Breaking into UX Writing and Content Design." There were literally more than 50 questions to cover, and it took us a while to sort them out and go through all of them. So, we decided to have another recorded call where Andrew and Yuval cover everything you need to know about getting into the field. Stuff we covered during our call: 1. Entry-Level vs. Higher-Up Roles 2. Building Connections in UX Writing 3. Favorite UX Research Methods for Writers 4. Personal Exercises in Portfolios And so much more
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00:00
There are a lot of people who are UX writers and content designers who weren't product designers before. I'm one of those people. I know a lot of people who I've worked with in the past have similar backgrounds to me, or were teachers even, or made a transition from some other field that didn't have anything to do with Ux. And so I wouldn't consider that as a blocker for you if you haven't been a designer before. This is writers in Tech, a podcast where today's top content strategists, UX writers and content designers share their well kept industry secrets.
00:38
Hello everyone, and welcome to writers in Tech, a podcast brought to you by the UX writing hub. My name is Yuval. I am the founder of the UX Writing Hub, which is a company that produce a lot of content for UX writers, content designers, writers in tech, people that are in charge of creating content in digital interfaces. Now we focus also on artificial intelligence and how might we create better content and better design using AI. Just because I think it's a fascinating world that's worth exploring. Then check our website. We have a lot of content on our blog and we have a free UX writing course and also a free AI for UX course as well. Today I have an amazing guest.
01:18
We had an event a few weeks ago where many people asked questions about getting into the field of UX writing and content design. I think it was our second or even third event. We had a podcast in the past, so Andro already been featured here in this podcast and in the content of the exciting hub a lot before, and I'm very excited to have him here today. Very excited to have.
01:45
Yeah, it's great to be here, Yuval, thanks so much. Yeah, it's always a pleasure meeting up with you. And the event we had a few weeks ago was such a blast and it always makes me feel so inspired just meeting people throughout the world and people want to break into the field. It's a topic I'm really passionate about. So yeah, definitely really happy to continue the conversation today and sharing knowledge I can with you.
02:08
So what I love the most about your work, Andrew, is the fact that you're very mindful about helping people to understand what is ux writing is all about. So it's very visible in the content that you create on LinkedIn, which I see all the time.
02:24
It's great.
02:26
And actually we had an event and it was 60 minutes event, very long. And I remember that at first, I remember even talking with you about it. It was like, oh, should we have slides? Because I'm not sure we could feel so many questions. I don't know if we'd have enough questions. But you know what? We had so many questions that we had to copy and paste them to a Google Docs, and we're just answering them on social media since the event until this very day. It's right now in front of me. Like, I have so many questions by a lot of people about this field of ux writing and content design.
02:59
So we decided to do this conversation right now, which would be on the record, where people could just tune in, check it out, whether if you're on your commute right now or cooking something nice for dinner, you could just tune in, listen up, and learn from the questions and also from Andrew about all of the different insights that he has about this field. So happy to have you here.
03:25
Yeah, no, it's a pleasure. I really enjoyed all the questions we received a few weeks ago, and I think we only got to about eight, nine, or ten during the live session that we had together. And that was just a testament to the depth of the questions we had and the curiosity that people were there. But, yeah, you're right. We had so many more, and I've been trying to answer two a week on LinkedIn right now. So I'll keep that going for months at this point, and then answering some today will be a lot of fun. So, yeah, definitely interested to keep the conversation going and try to help some people.
03:54
It was around, I believe, like 50 questions.
03:58
Yeah, it was amazing. It's really cool. That was way more than I thought. I was expecting maybe 20 to 30, but 50. I was really happy to see that and really humbling to see that many people interested in this topic.
04:09
Amazing, man. So I'll ask some questions. We have one question from anonymous attendee that said, if I have a long history in writing and editing books and want to find my first job in content design, should I apply for entry level roles or higher up roles? I worry I'm viewed as overqualified for entry level and viewed as underqualified for higher up roles.
04:37
That's a really interesting question. I think it depends maybe on the hiring manager. I always like to preface my answers with these is like, I don't know everything and don't take what I say as the absolute truth. I'll give you my opinion based on what I see and what I've experienced, but definitely don't be afraid to go on your own journey as you try to break into the field. So just starting out today, I'd like to preface that a little bit, but from my perspective with this particular question, I think you might have more luck with interviews in the entry level position. I think there's a pretty big emphasis on content design work, new x writing work, when hiring managers try to find someone for those roles.
05:18
Of course, editing and other similar fields can help you shape that kind of content designer in you as you continue on. But I think specific content design work and ux writing work is what people are looking for when they're looking for maybe higher up roles, more advanced. So I think maybe you may be more fit for an entry level position. And I would definitely try to emphasize the cross functional nature of your work and a previous career where you've worked with writers or maybe other editors or just people, different stakeholders, to get a project past finish line, because that's a transferable skill that will work within the UX world.
05:56
So that's something I would try to emphasize, but I was a journalist for about eight, nine years, and I had an entry level role when I entered the content design world, and I don't think I would have been competitive at all for a mid level or senior level role as a UX writer at that stage when I was trying to make my career transition. So just from my perspective, I think you might have more luck trying to find an entry level role, but still emphasize some of those cross functional aspects of your previous role or previous career. And I think that'll be helpful as you try to make your transition.
06:28
I will say also that based on my experience, usually that type of people, while they go to entry level roles, their track to senior level roles might be a bit faster.
06:39
So maybe like, yeah, that's a great point.
06:42
Maybe you could get that entry level role which usually paid very decently in a UX writing position, even better probably than senior journalists.
06:53
Yeah, definitely.
06:55
And very quickly, hopefully very quickly, you could land that senior or mid senior position just because of all of your writing and editing experience that you bring to the table. So it would be kind of a boot camp for you, one year, two years, just to learn then, you know, straight into the senior mode, which is something I saw many times specifically also in the UX writing hub, students as well.
07:20
Yeah, that's a great point about how the track to the next level might be quicker based on your experience. And I think that's definitely something to keep in mind that your journey from an entry level or like a junior level role to a mid level or then senior might. There's no set time for people. It's just all kind of an individual journey and there's no right or wrong way to go about that journey. But just know that you can use your past experience to influence your future and it might be a quick transition from an entry level to a mid level to a senior path. So yeah, it's really interesting to think.
07:52
About what part of your job as a content designer do you like the most?
07:57
Oh, wow, that's a really good question. I think it's really working with people and meeting with people. It's something I've always done in my professional life as a journalist. I really got to meet a lot of different people from a lot of different backgrounds and learn their stories, and that's something I really became passionate about and really drawing connections to people and getting to know them. And there are a lot of similarities to that in the UX world. I found. I've said this before, but working within Ux, to me, feels a lot like covering a beat in journalism where you just get to work with people on a consistent basis, whether it's product managers, product designers, or UX researchers or other people, and you really kind of know digging deep with them with a lot of different topics.
08:36
And so I see some similarities between my former life, my current life in that way. So I think it's just getting to know people and their kind of preferences and working styles and just kind of solving problems in a really interesting way and just learning from people too. I work with so many smart people and I have throughout my journey in Ux, and it's just really fun to pick up lessons from people along the way and try to take pieces of them and add that to my own skill set because you admire people for different reasons as you encounter them, and it's really fun to see what works for someone within this world and try to learn from them and then incorporate that in your own professional life. So, yeah, I'd say that just the people aspect for me is really fascinating and interesting.
09:18
Of course, specific problems and assignments and projects are really interesting too. But I think kind of the holistic, overarching theme for me in this job is just like the connections you make with people and then the lessons you can take from them as you continue your own career journey.
09:34
It's always about the people, right?
09:36
Yeah, exactly. Definitely. That's what time is saying, and it's pretty fun for me, for sure.
09:41
Okay, so do you think a designer would have more chances to get hired as a UX writer or content designer than a non designer. I'm a copywriter, and the few Ux people I know all have design backgrounds.
09:54
Yeah, I think that's interesting. It's another situation where I'd say maybe it depends on the hiring manager's preferences or the company's preferences or needs at that time. When someone's hiring, they're always trying to fill a specific need or situation. They're probably looking for a specific background. So I'd say it depends. It's kind of a wishy washy answer, but there are a lot of people who are uX writers and content designers who weren't product designers before. I'm one of those people. I know a lot of people who I've worked with in the past have similar backgrounds to me or were teachers even, or made a transition from some other field that didn't have anything to do with ux. And so I wouldn't consider that as a blocker for you.
10:35
If you haven't been a designer before, I will say that it would be interesting if you had an interest in developing your design chops a bit. If you wanted to explore that more and dive into what a designer does, that could beneficial for you and your career, even if you just want to be a content designer moving forward. But if you learn some product design principles and learn how they go about their job, that could be a benefit for someone, I think for sure who's trying to become a UX writer or content designer. But overall, I view UX writers as product designers who work with words. And so I think there's a specific lens and skill set that UX writers use.
11:13
And so if you've done that in previous careers, whether it's some kind of writing related field or some other area where you work with words, I think that could be a benefit to you. And I wouldn't consider like a non designer background as a blogger in any way. Just go forward and emphasize those specific things about your background that could translate into a UX position for you.
11:35
There are some also disadvantages for people with design background. Specifically, I can talk about myself. So I am a product designer by like I was graphic designer, turned to be a UX designer. And some UX writers that are really good with words because of their writing background, I would say that they are way better vx writers than I do, just because they took their time to be very good in product design and then they take everything they learned about writing and they just implement it in product design and in the product design process I don't consider myself a bad writer. I think I'm okay writer. I have some disadvantages because I'm not a native english speaker, for example, and so on.
12:21
But I could say that I'm a bit biased because I would always look first on the composition of things, on the design systems, on the components, maybe on the technical aspects of the design tool, which is figma. And someone that don't have design background wouldn't bring all of those biases to the table when they're just starting. Yeah. And you could have so many different backgrounds. You could be like, I don't know, maybe psychology background, journalism background, like a lot of interesting stuff that will really step up your UX writing game and then the design part of it you can just learn as you go. In my opinion, it's not rocket science. I think it's a learnable skill. I don't think it's something that you can't learn how to do it.
13:10
It's even easy when you really focus on that specific area and you're aware of the fact that you can improve in that area. So I think it's very learnable. I don't know, like learning even now to use Figma or learning how to do very basic UX stuff like user research and then wireframes and that type of stuff. I really don't think it's rocket science, especially if your approach is content first, not visual first, which is something that you probably will have.
13:42
Yeah, I think that's a great point about being content first and thinking about it that way. And I love your point about how you can learn on the job and learn some things. And I think as you make a career transition, you have to expect that you'll have a lot to learn. And you shouldn't put pressure on yourself before applying for a role to learn everything because you just can't before you jump into the career. So it's almost like jumping off a diving board in the deep end. Sometimes you just have to make the leap and you'll learn after you splash in the deep end and start a job. But yeah, I'd say don't limit yourself and don't put pressure on yourself to be like, I have to know so much before I even apply to me.
14:18
I think the best approach would be to actually try to break into the field and know you'll learn things as you go, whether it's tools or processes. And things change over time, too. And so just know that you're always continuously learning. I'm always learning and I'm five years into this. So, yeah, if you really like to learn, this is a great field for you.
14:35
So Ryan Cohen is asking, what are some of the portfolio mistakes that you made as a new uX writer, and how did you fix them?
14:44
That's a great question. With the portfolio, I've really kind of evolved over time based on even real interviews, just learning what worked and what didn't. But sometimes when you apply for a position, you'll have to give a portfolio presentation where you present maybe two or three case studies to a hiring manager and maybe other content designers on the team that you may be working with. And so during those sessions, you'll spend about 30 minutes, maybe on a case study each, and then you'll talk about your process and the people you worked with and things like that, and screenshots before and after of the project and the impact that you made and talk about that. But overall, I tried to get some feedback on my portfolio presentation or portfolio overall, especially early when I was first. Kind of like applying for roles.
15:32
Probably between my first and second Ux role is when this happened the most. And based on some of that feedback, I would tweak my portfolio presentation a little bit. Or if I got questions at the end of my presentation during the session, they're like, oh, do you have an example of this that you talked about? And if I didn't, I'd be like, oh, I need to add that for next time. Use that live feedback as a learning situation for me. So I'd say specifics, though. There were just some things, like specific examples or links to data. Including data was actually one big lesson.
16:06
As much data as you can get to show the impact of your work, that's something I've learned that's really important and valuable, but also just explaining the people you worked with and your role within the project and kind of your impact overall. And then I think the specific type of project, too, is something I learned. The more you can show an end to end experience with your impact, like coming in really early with a project and working with a product designer and product manager and UX researcher to understand a problem, then using user research to understand what users are telling you, and then attack a problem based on that feedback and just going from that very beginning stage all the way to the end and showing the impact that you made. Those are the most valuable portfolio pieces to me anyway.
16:55
So that's what I've learned, is just kind of like the specific types of portfolio pieces to show kind of your end to end impact. If you have something from the very beginning of the project to the end, instead of diving in at the middle point of a project, I think you want to show those things where you're part of that at the very beginning. That was something I learned, but also, yeah, just showing the ultimate impact you made through data and then having specific pieces of that shown within your portfolio, I think are just a few things I've learned along the way.
17:24
That's my question. What's your favorite or most used UX research methodology as a writer?
17:31
Oh, yeah, I've had a few different experiences along the way. Recently, I've used user testing a little bit for user feedback. But early on, we had a dedicated UX researcher for a team. I was a part of my first UX job, and it was really beneficial to work with that UX researcher on a specific project where he had some live interviews with users, where I listened in while the UX researcher kind of led the sessions, but I would jump in with content questions at the end, and then we would collaborate and kind of talk about some of themes from each user's kind of thoughts from that session. And there were multiple sessions over time, but then you'd kind of draw threads and kind of try to make connections between the feedback.
18:17
So I think those live interview sessions to me were really helpful overall on user testing. You can have async sessions where people will just kind of tape themselves or kind of record sessions and give you verbal feedback on their own time. But to me, some of those kind of live sessions and opportunities to ask follow up questions, content related questions are really helpful. And so I'd say that in particular was probably the most insightful for me as I've experienced different testing opportunities throughout my career.
18:48
All right, thank you for that. And I have here a question that is a bit longer, so let me break it down real quick.
18:55
Sure.
18:56
So this one is brought us by a kai soy. Hope I didn't butcher the name. And that's the question. So recently I joined the job interview. May I ask, if you were me, how to handle that task better? Okay. Now they elaborate about the message. The interviewer gave me the current web page, and asked me to rewrite the content. Afterwards, a UX designer would come to the room and design the wireframe with me. After studying the web page, my observation was the issue wasn't about writing, instead, it was about navigation. I raised this question to the interviewer, but they suggested I write first. I was frustrated at the moment, so here are my two questions. Question number one, what did the interviewer expect from this task? And two, if you were me, how would you prepare for this task in 20 minutes?
19:57
Oh, wow, that's a really hard task. Only 20 minutes. Prepare for that. But that's a great question and situation. I've never encountered that, actually a live situation like that. But I think that's really interesting that you brought up that it's a navigation issue instead of a content issue, and the fact that they kind of push back on that, I think is a little revealing and somewhat, I don't know, it's more of a negative, I'd say, because it could be a navigation issue or an issue beyond content. And so if that's the case, I think it's okay and you did nothing wrong if you really feel it was a navigation issue.
20:29
And I think some people view content as something that just comes after and just like a fill in situation, and that's not a great way to look at things like content is designed, and sometimes content can't fix problems with a navigation issue or something deeper with the design. So the fact that you brought that up, I think is really interesting and good on your part and not something I'd be ashamed of. I don't really know if I have a good answer to this, Yuval. Actually, I was thinking about this, and if I really thought it was a navigation issue, I'd almost continue to push that a little and be like, no, we can't really fill in content for this.
21:04
Think, you know, there's a deeper problem here with the navigation, and I'd try to explain that more and try to create some pause there with the designer, hiring manager, whoever was moderating that interview session. But yeah, I think it's a really interesting thing that you saw that as a navigation issue instead of just something content can fix and actually wouldn't pivot from that or try to fix it just with content. I would try to elaborate more on why that was a deeper issue and then maybe based on their comments or something, go forward from there. But yeah, what do you think, Yuval? I'm not quite sure how to handle that.
21:39
Know, you have these Hollywood superstars.
21:48
Okay.
21:48
So you have Hollywood superstars, and they have, between themselves, they say, okay, I do one for the box office, but one for my heart, right? I'll do like one crazy box office, the one that I was asked for, right? And then I will do the one that I truly believe would be really good.
22:10
Right? Yeah, there you go.
22:13
I think as ux writers, as content designers, we should have that type of approach. And why is that? Okay, I would try to be clear. So there still is a misconception about the way content design is perceived in many different places. So the product manager, or the hiring manager in this case was like, hey, what are you doing? Don't touch my navigation.
22:40
I need you to write this page.
22:43
Because they're like, dude, you can't touch that. And you have 20 minutes. And I just need to sit through a good writer. So they have some kind of a misconception about what ux writing is all about. So I would do like, okay, one for the box office. So I would be like, okay, this is my version of what you need. And we have only 20 minutes. So I wouldn't even do it, but I would say how I would approach it, because nobody can write a page in 20 minutes or nobody can write a decent page in 20 minutes. This is my approach for that. But let me tell you that I would first step back and check the navigation, and then you show that, okay, you're doing what you were told. You're not doing any pushback.
23:29
You go with it because you understand that there are some misconceptions about your role, but your role also would be to educate people in your company what you are about. So I think, first of all, you did really good thing when you suggested the fact that we need to review and revise the architecture or the navigation, the content architecture on the information architecture. It doesn't really matter how you call it, because that's your role, too, or that would be your role. So I wouldn't be discouraged because you did it or frustrated. I think that was smart. But I would also going for that home run, going for the box office and say, but listen, there you go. This is how I would redo the page itself. And I understand maybe we have time limitations. Maybe you need to launch next week. I understand.
24:21
So that's what I would do. But let's bring this back to the table next time so we could review also the architecture. And then from like a pushback, you start a discussion. And I think that's what being a good ux writing is all about. Like deliver, but also educate, show your value. And that's also how you teach people to work with you. So that's what I would do with that being said in 20 minutes, that's quite of a challenge. So I'm not jealous at all. I would also maybe say something about it, listen, I need more than 20 minutes or I don't work well when you have like a stopper next to me, so I just need more time, or at least that's what I can do in this time. But that's my plan.
25:11
I would take 20 minutes just to plan and ask questions, and I think that would be good enough solution in my opinion.
25:18
Yeah, that's really good. Yeah, I think compromising that situation is good, and it'd be hard. I can't imagine doing something in 20 minutes. That's not how the job works in real life. Yeah, something like that would be really difficult to come up with an effective solution in 20 minutes.
25:33
And some might say, hey, you're taking a risk here, because at the end of the day, they expect you to deliver in those 20 minutes. But I would say that it's not a risk at all, because if their expectation is full delivery in 20 minutes, there's a really big chance that this place is just not right for any decent UX writer or any good uX writer, but a sweatshop writer. That's just like just getting tasks over tasks that nobody actually know how to work with. So I think it's okay to be frustrated if I were you. But yeah, that was my answer.
26:10
That's great.
26:11
What advice do you have about what to include in a portfolio when you don't have any or many real life projects? Is there any value to including personal exercises from a UX writing course or other scenarios, given you can't speak to any actual results for those? Like you can't show the data of course projects.
26:35
Right.
26:36
So what would you do?
26:37
Yeah, something I've encountered before when I was a mentor at the UX writing hub, UX writing academy, and things like that. And I'd say any work you can do for content design or UX writing, whether it's a course or free exercise or something, get that work and show it. Yes, you won't have data, but it's still valuable to explain the thought process you went through to accomplish that task and the people you worked with and the different things you did to kind of come up with a final solution. And so, yes, there are some limitations to having non real world work, but I think it's still valuable to include that in the portfolio, if that's what your portfolio would be at that time, and just set the context with a hiring manager about what that work meant and where it was done.
27:30
And some of the maybe limitations involved things like that. But with case studies in particular, someone's just trying to understand your thought process and how you approach a problem. And just how you think. And those are some of the things that hiring managers want to know and understand as they're going through evaluating you. And so, yeah, I would definitely just try to include that in your portfolio still, but set the stage about how you accomplished it, and then just talk about the people you worked with, some of the challenges involved, but then also how you came up with the solution, and how you effectively solve that problem while working with various people along the way. And so that's how I'd approach it.
28:12
Maybe some other people have different opinions about this, but I think it would still be good to include in the portfolio and talk about it if that's what your portfolio is at the moment.
28:22
Also, if you don't have real world experience, I would try to be very proactive about getting it. So pitching it to nonprofits, different companies, maybe doing it as a freelance for a while, just getting those real projects whenever you can. Obviously, if you are interested to get into UX writing, and you're currently not a UX writer, so your job is to have real world experience under your belt. So you need to wake up in the morning and be very proactive and say, okay, what type of digital experience am I going to design today? Even if you are doing an unsolicited case study for yourself, taking your favorite app and redesigning it, or adding like, a nice feature to it, do that. Just leave the way of the UX writer and content designer and just do that.
29:17
Just do that every day until someone pays you to do that. That's what I think.
29:22
Yeah, I think that's a great point about being proactive to get that real world experience, because I will say, I think that is valuable to have that in a portfolio if you're just starting out or exploring the field. Because in the real world, there are limitations involved and maybe deadlines and things that you might not have with exercises in a course or free online assignments or things like that. But yeah, any real world experience you can get is so valuable because you will encounter those limitations and work with people who have expectations and deliverables to present to someone at a certain time. So, yeah, definitely great advice about trying to get real world experience along the way.
30:02
All right, and we're getting into the end of our interview today. You know what? Let's do something interesting. If people would listen to it and say, hey, we want to have more of this, we still have more questions. So if people would share that on social media, on LinkedIn, and tag us and ask for more, at least on my end, I could say I can promise we could go back and answer more of your questions if you're interested. What do you think?
30:31
Yeah, that'd be great. I love that because I'm really curious to see if there's an appetite out there for more of this, and I'm just encouraged by how many questions were asked and the smart questions we encountered today. And I'd be happy to answer more questions along the way. People would like that. So yes, please tag me or you've all. And if we get enough response, I'd be happy to do this again. This is a lot of fun.
30:53
Awesome. Andrew. We'll add your LinkedIn also to the show notes so people could add you as well and talk to you if they're interested. Super happy to have you here today. Thank you so much.
31:05
Yeah, no, thank you. You've always a pleasure. And thank you to everyone who's trying to break into the field. Just know, be proud of your journey, keep the faith, and yeah, continue being curious and see where things lead for you. But yeah, thank you so much for the opportunity to chat today. I really enjoyed it.
31:21
Thank you everyone for listening to another episode of writers in Tech. My name is Yuval Keshter. I'm the founder of the UX writing hub. Check our website. Check our free UX writing course. Let us help you to get into the field. If you're interested in that and just tag us on LinkedIn, we would love to answer all of your questions.