Hans van Dam is the co-founder of Robocopy and the Conversational Academy. His goal is to develop and promote the role of the conversation designer. He develops curriculum for the Conversational Academy, lectures at multiple universities, and speaks often at conferences around the world. Hans is a designer, educator, and strategist of chatbots and voice assistants. He helps develop chatbots that are more helpful, natural, and persuasive. In this episode, we talk about Robocopy, Hans’ experience, and how chatbots are changing the virtual game on almost every platform. Listen to this episode in order to learn - Who can potentially become a conversation design? - The skill set required to design great chatbot? - Hans’ Conversational Academy.
You can read more from Hans’ work here:
I want to make sure that 80 percent of your users go through 20 percent of your conversational pass, if you're not aware of that, before you know you're going to be spending 80 percent of your time working on 20 percent of all the exceptions.
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Today we have Hans Van Dam from Amsterdam, the first time I met him was in Chatbot summit here in Tel Aviv. And since then, I've been following his work, working as a co-founder at a company named the Robocopy based in Amsterdam. They're doing a fantastic job. They have a fantastic team that I met in Amsterdam voicing out conversation designs. So they have also a conversation design academy and they educate people from all over the world on how to create chatbots, how to create more conversational experiences. I've seen Hans on stage twice, and since then he's like burning stages all over the world. And I'm very excited to have him here today. Hans. How are you, my friend?
Oh, good. Thanks for having me. Looking forward to this.
Good. Good then. I'm happy to have you and I personally learned a lot from you and from your courses. I thought of the name of this talk is going to be Testing Your Copy Like Your Wizard, because I learned from the Wizard of Oz testing from your course. It was really cool. I know that it's not something new. But like, I love the way that you implemented it and how you implemented with your clients. So that's me talking too much. But for once, I would love to hear more about your background. And how did you get into a conversation design?
Yeah. Yeah, perfect. I guess like every copywriter I'm a failed novelist, first and foremost. So I wanted to be a writer. I wrote a manuscript at one point, but like nobody checked for it. So I became a copywriter. I started working at attacking Schmader here in Amsterdam. It's a program run by M.I.T., Stanford and the university here. So they'll help like tech companies, science student tech companies sort of find your proposition. So I was working with that and I learned about technology there, which starts interesting more and more. Then we had our own little startup that failed miserably. So I needed to get a job. So I start working in customer service real quick.
Which product were you working on that was failing miserably?
Yeah. Was a video streaming thing. Yeah, so we had like very smart engineers and it was a lot of fun, it was actually very good product. We should have been successful, but we failed miserably.
You know, it's just sometimes about timing and about after this is not relevant leading to the product itself.
Yeah. I have no idea what I was doing personally. So I got fired from that one.
Which was great and then the company went bust a couple months later, s that was perfect.
It happened to me also before. By the way, I was fired from a company and the name of the company's Marvel, not the comics one. It's like much more boring. I think it's like.
Okay, you know.
Like you know maybe Qualcomm. It's like 95% of the phones have Qualcomm fingers and some of the right. So Marvel was doing like the other five percent low cost to smartphones, and that was one of the best jobs of my life.
They sent me a broad enough to just like check cheap smartphones on different networks. So I traveled all over the world with my phone, just checking those phones. And at some point, I was fired. And that was really like being fired is very difficult. Difficult thing to happen to you. It's hard. And like two months after, there was like, huge layout's this Chinese company kind of kick their ass and they had to lay out like 200 people. And all of my team was also fired. And I was like, I wasn't happy about it, but I was like, OK, so if I was staying there, I was getting phone anyways, whatever. So everything had been for me. So I was dead broke, so I needed some money. So I started working in customer service, talking to customers on social media or Twitter for KLM. Yeah. So I was in the customer service there and I saw this chap. What's pop up? It used to be like very simple. Q And A chat boards. You would ask the question and then they would not know the answer. But then he came. Right. So I was like, OK, I understand how to write dialog from S.. I understand how this technology works. And I now understand the service. So I just started exploring that and started obsessing over a little bit. Working with some clients already. And then I met my co-founders that had a behavior design agency. So there are psychologists thinking about desired behavior from users using psychology for that. They were using they were exploring dialogs as well. So just influence people. So we figured if we team up, that makes a lot of sense. Right, because I understand the artificial brain and they really understand the human brain. So we matched that. Then we're gonna be able to really create useful conversations between Schulman's and A.I. and making chat possible voice assistance, much more human centric and helpful to people. So that's sort of what we started exploring. And for us now, what we've turned ourselves into is really a company that recognizes, develops and promotes the role of the conversation designer. We feel that conversation design is going to be a. Very important job in the future. So we want to promote it, get as many people to be aware about that. Create awareness around it. And then we provide training and certification around that to really matured as an industry because we feel like every company now has like 50 UX designers will. Five years from now, you're going to have 60 conversation designers. And they do this yet. Right. And so we need to figure out through assessments like who can potentially become conversation design? What's the skill set that they need? And then how do we make sure that they can actually provide quality around?
That's really interesting because first of all, I love the like. Your vision is something that they really can agree with.
And also, when you talk, you talk about the movie her, which is also really nice reference, or in Westworld, which is also a nice reference for how to make art technology more human. So 50 years from now, there's going to be more there's going to be conversation designers and designers. And who do you think will take those roles, like writers, designers? Like what's going to be the big role? Yeah, they come from all walks of life.
Right. I think companies are going to be using A.I. to talk to people. That's a big deal. And then you have to ask, like, who do we want to be in charge of that? It's probably not the engineers. What excites me most is, you know, because I'm a writer, I'm a creative. I had never I never had any place in the tech industry. But now as sort of that potential all day, I is out there. But also the risks of it is you can see this amazing need for people from different backgrounds that are writers, philosophers are actors. All these people that have a completely different mindset about these things, about Problem-Solving dad now find their place in technology was going to be much more ascetics. They are. So we sort of see three different roles emerge. Most departments, you have your conversational A.I. training. So these are people that work with the platforms, that work with the technology to go over the data, digital analytics they do scoping. These are often like you're overqualified customer service people. I'm a bit more technical. You've got your conversation designers that will do research, that will do sample dialog, that will validate validated through the Wizard of Oz test. These are with a UX background. And then you'll have your conversational expert, which is more in charge of tone, of voice, about psychology, about both personality and drives the strategy a bit more. Those are people that are your expert copywriters that come from communication, that come from marketing. So you'll see that everybody has a different background. And in each conversation, design teams, as they grow, there's going to be more and more rules to devise. So we work with a lot of universities now to just tell students like there's an amazing career opportunity for year round conversation design. You get to work with like the most advanced technology without being an engineer. That's pretty cool. So you see people from all different backgrounds sort of sign up for the academy.
That's amazing. I really love the fact that you promoted among universities because they think that universities have so much catching up to do with what's happening today with the world.
So that's a good idea. That's amazing. So there is like four different tools that you envision to be in the future. One that is going to be more related to creating the voice and tone, the character with more like kind of the psychology background. One, this is going to be more about the conversation designer. Right. To actually create those interaction. And one that is going to be over the quantified customer support, right?
That's the A.I. trainer. Right?
So that system smarter fitting with that and stuff like that. And you were mentioning that the term Wizard of Oz testing. So tell me more about that to the listeners did not show about this method.
Yeah, it's great. It's it's The Wizard of Oz says there's a lot of fun. It is. So our good friend Wally from Google introduced me to it, which you pretty much do what a Wizard of Oz says the process is like. You do sample dialog. Pretty much what happens is because all I'll back it up a little bit. Right. So the way we design is we do sample dialog. We looked at the box leads and the user is right. So we have a canvas for that, because our perspective is that if you have a conversation between a boss of humans, then they both have a certain expectation, a certain goal in that conversation. So we need to understand that. Right. So from the user's perspective, we'll look at what is their context, what are their motivations, what are their anxieties, what are their expectations? Pretty much everything that we can know about them. And we'll put that on the campus. We do that from the board's perspective as well. Because if the board wants to engage in a conversation that we need to know what is information that he needs to have to help this customer or what is information that he might already have. These superpowers where you can look stuff up in a database, is there a legal information that you must share? There is a lot of stuff going on in the conversation. So we'll put that on the canvas. And what we'll do that is we'll do sample dialog. And what that means is that you said to people back to back from each other so they can see each other and they only have words to communicate and one person is going to be playing to use and the other one's going to be playing the box. And they pretty much do improvizational theater to figure out what the most natural flow of the conversation. That's right. And it'll be super awkward at first. And you're you the person playing the user will be asking a ton of questions like. But how long does it take to ship? Was it cost? Does it break quickly? We have it in a different color. How does that work? So all these questions the user asks. Pretty much we have to ask yourself. This is a question of more people would ask. And if that's the case, then it's probably something the person playing the board should proactively communicate. Right. So I should do this exercise. You're going to get to a situation where the board is very much understands the user and he answers to questions before you use or even ask them. Right. And that creates a lot of empathy. And what you'll get to is a conversation that, you know, if there's empathy in the beginning and you feel understood. You feel like I get you. They are OK with me taking control of the conversation. Right. And then it becomes quite relaxed and friendly. But if you don't feel understood by me, Daniel, start talking a lot. Right. Because you want me to understand you. That's usually one job lunch break. Right. So we'll do this exercise to get to a structure of the conversation that feels most natural. Right. But now we've done that with two people. So we still don't really know how that works for other people because we're dealing with an interface where you're a user can say whatever he wants, said at any given moment. Pretty much. Right. So there's a lot of risk there. So we want to very quickly validate if that works. So without starting to develop anything yet. We'll take this core structure of the conversation and we'll do a whisker OZ test. Would it pretty much means is that we'll bring five to 10 people in and whatever to use cases we are working on. Maybe someone says, I want to book a table at a restaurant or something. We have designed a conversation for that freedom. It's like a long fidelity conversation. Design will bring people in and we'll just let them have the conversation so they can speak freely. But we will say what it is that we have designed. Right. That will do it. So somebody is booking a table at a restaurant. We'll just sell something. Hey, you feel like this is there is you want to book a table at a restaurant that they speak freely and we just read out what we've written down. And very quickly, we'll discover what doesn't doesn't hold up because you're within with five or ten people. You're got to discover everything that's wrong with it because someone will say something like, oh, God, hadn't thought of that. Back to the drawing board. Right. To some people is good figure to help you figure out what doesn't doesn't work when you should hand it over to maybe a Web site or to an agent or a phone number where he gets too complicated. So wisdom always helps you really. Like a few hours completely validate your design. And then at the end of the test, you will know the structure of the conversation. You will know how it's gonna work for 80 percent of the users, that it makes sense. And then it's about polishing and making it better that obviously sort of go into like a high fidelity design.
And many people with creating both experience today talk about it 80 percent, like creating the expense for 80 percent of the users and not trying to cover all the possible use cases, because that's just not possible.
You know, it has to do with LongTail design. Right. So you want to make sure that 80 percent of your users go through 20 percent of your conversational pass down. If you sort of if you don't really if you're not aware of that before, you know, you're going to be spending 80 percent of your time working on 20 percent of all the exceptions and all the weird stuff pretty much means. Right? You do booking a table at a restaurant. People want to make a reservation for like six people at eight o'clock. Then that's totally fine if they're eleven and two of them are in a wheelchair and three of them are gluten free and two of them are vegan. But just musical. Right. Like, that's not something the box should be able to handle right now. So just focus on, you know, simple. A bunch of people want to put in a reservation for a certain time. That's the stuff that should handle the rest of it. Don't bother.
First of all, thank you for that answer. I learned also even more right now about there was a there was this thing. So thank you for that. And really reminds me, by the way, also for the UK's writers, they have this I think they call it marker testing that, you know, you just printed the wire frames and handed out to different prospects like five to 10 people over. Even people like you, your colleagues and together, you just let them use the MARKKU just to tell them that they will tell you what this awards tells them or which other was would they recommend to you? Stuff like that. So it's pretty similar, I guess. That's really, really cool. And what would be for our listeners right now that what the great conversational interface, maybe some kind of a boat? What would be the most common use cases today for creating a boat? They know that there is a big boat that's creating a airport.
Both right now. I was just talking to a cabi, a big fan.
Yes. This is a keamy from also. She was I've seen her speak at the about summit as well. Yeah.
See are a couple of weeks ago. I was just talking to her.
Amazing. And so my question is, what will be the most common use cases today for creating a checkbook?
I mean, the most common use case for childbirths is the boring stuff. Right. So it's about a customer service, which is actually very complicated. Most companies, the major use case is reducing costs and call centers and making it easier for people to find solutions to your problems. Get your questions answered. That's the most common. And that's where you see the big operations. But you're now also seeing more and more stuff around lead generation. Well, we do a lot. So we'll have like an e-mail campaign. And instead of going to a landing page, we actually send it to a chat board and have a more persuasive conversation like Facebook Messenger. Now, usually it's a Facebook messenger. It's not that interesting. There's not much going on there. Now, you said it's like a nice landing page with a chat board on certain savary, but it will be the only thing there. So it's awesome. Like a nice header or a nice photo with an conversational interface where it's just conversation but which come to a do you plug to the back end of it like meningitis or something else. We have our own stuff as well. We work with it sort of depends on who the client is, where we have our own tool for that as well. It's called one question, but there is like there's many solutions to that. And there's also companies that just, you know, if they have a conversation or a customer service operation going, then they'll just use that engine for this campaign as well. So it's like it really depends. But there's a very simple, like lead gen conversational tools type form is also launching or I think it's already life, your conversational interfaces, which can really be used for that, which is really a once like the video on, I don't know, like do they have like now you can publish it as a chat board that she created for me can post as a chat body. You can do like rigid or you can do a full page that like land but does. So there is really depends on what kind of company you are. It depends on what the desired behavior is, the rest of your ecosystem. I think a lot of companies are overinvesting in technology. Right. So do buy fancy stuff and try and get it to work. But a lot of times if you just do the design, you figure out what the most what the conversation actually is that you want to have with your customers. It helps you select the right tools. A lot of times companies are spending 100 grand on technology where really 50 bucks would have done for what they're trying to do. So we would try to get clients to just focus more on design and make that equally important, just the engineering and how that helps you to then just decide what kind of technology.
Right. Because probably for customer support and I don't have a lot of experience with this tool, you can use maybe interschool more than this or stuff like that.
You can do that, too. But if you look at the real customer service departments where we work with companies that get 30 million SHAZZA months, well, then you're going to need some heavier equipment set up so that you end up with the big ones like Rosow. It's Microsoft with IBM. Watson dialog flow a little bit life person. So there is this really like big companies, dad, that really understands what you need. So there's clients that where there's one hundred people working on a checkbox full time. These are very serious operations. And then obviously, if you're a small business and you want to get some leech and so you want a simple check. I mean, it comes on. Dask they provide for that, right? So it's really there's no answer to what you need. It depends on your ambitions now and your ambitions, like five years from now what you want to do. So usually what happens is a company will have one little chat bot, somebody testing it out a little bit. So then that becomes a little smarter, gets more capabilities than other departments will think. Now I want to chat out to a voice assistant. Doesn't matter. And I have a company with, like all these different conversational experiences going on. So then one person is clever enough that says, you know, we need to sort of organize this a little bit and create one conversational A.I. department. Right. And once you get to that point, that's usually when you start making very adult decisions. What kind of technology do I want to invest in and how do I develop develop the capabilities of my assets? That's right. And that's that's sort of the maturity model that we see.
Amazing. So this field. Not enough people are talking about the fact that this is going to be a huge part of our future. Yeah.
Like like for us, the first thing I tell my clients is that I don't really care about your chat board or voice assistance. You're gonna be using a I to talk to people and that's gonna be a big deal and that's gonna be very important and that's gonna be a serious department. So let's think about how we're going to organize that. Right. And that's why. Well, we say we recognize the world. The conversation is on. Sure. We need to teach people how to write and make these things friendly and good. But there is a very large trend going on towards A.I..
There are going to be very important departments do have some kind of case study you could show about an impact that you created in organization using A.I. and Checkbook's that really created a huge impact on the organization.
If you look at a large telco there onstage, the law dimension a cell up in a much more complex Internet. What we do is like they have one chapter that's very famous and pretty much in every country that they operate, it sets 30, 40 countries. How does the company exactly? It's a it's a telco. Yeah, it's a big telco. So they operate the same shop and voice experience in all these different countries. So what we do is help them develop design teams in all those countries. And we do that by really creating custom curriculum for them. So we create videos for them that everybody in the organization can watch or they can learn about compensation design. Then we spend time with them on site. So we've been to New Zealand, to South Africa, to the UK and Germany. We work in every country with them to really find the people in their local markets that we feel could potentially become conversation solvers. And then we train them and we sort of support them through consultancy. And slowly they're building up these teams that can really create good chat board and voice experience. So that's the stuff that I'm most proud of, where they really recognize it as well and really invest. And you can see them reaping the benefits. Right. So they have 30 million interactions a month. Plus you can automate some of that. Right. You're gonna be saving so much money over time and also available 24/7 to talk to people. So you're going to have half of your customers aim to save millions. Really? So at that scale, that's obviously like super interesting and fun to work at.
So basically, the interaction that people have with telco and your book is for their website or from which platforms or mediums do they usually interact with that.
So it's on it's on the Web site. It's in the app. It's on Google. It's on Alexa. So what these companies are doing is building one big conversational engine and you sort of decide which interface you put on top of that. So we design everything. Voice First, if you can figure out a use case through voice, then that's, you know, the most minimal interface that you have. Right. So if it works in voice, you want to deploy to chat while they even have the luxury of adding a few buttons or a picture. Right. So if you design voice first, you can use it everywhere. If you design for a chat board that you might not necessarily be able to use it in voice. So what we do with companies like that is take all their major use cases across markets and work with those teams and design the most important use cases voice first and then they use it on Google systems. They use these to another website to use it everywhere.
That's amazing. It sounds like Tellco is a company that have many resources to build that kind of engine.
But let's say that there is maybe also a big company, but they are not. I'm sure that you have class like that. They don't want to put all of their efforts right now for creating that kind of conversation experience, but they want to check it out. So let's say that we're an organization, a big one. We have fundings, but we just want to explore this feasibility. So where should we start?
Yeah. So when you see a lot of companies do is done, go out and look for technology. And I think that's the big mistake that everybody is making. All right. So they'll start with technology, with knowledge management. They're a business process. The best thing to do is to do like a little workshop and figure out, you know, what are some of the conversations that we're having with customers or employees that are costing us? Money would be great if we could automate some of that. Let's take some of those use cases and sort of have like a design workshop and figure out what the conversation would look like. And would it actually be viable? And, you know, if you do that, then it's really you're spending a day or two the. Get a simple technology to sort of test it out real quick, right, and see if it works for you and your company. So this really does the first step in that maturity model where you don't have to overinvest, where you can just test the waters a little bit. But testing the waters should be more on the design part and the writing part rather than the technology part. I love this. So that's why you see a lot of companies make big mistakes. Those are expensive mistakes to make for sure.
And there is so many technologies today that do automations and it's really hard to decide and you need some kind of professional that will guide you for it. And that proficient should definitely be the designer that will just know how to solve that problem in the most affordable and make the best possible way with the technologies that exists today. So I love the fact that you talked about that the design should lead this both and not the technical people. Yeah, definitely. Where do you see yourself and your company in five years from now in that field?
That's a great question. So for us, well, we want to be is the scrum of conversation design. Right? So we have a design process that we know works well that is delivering a lot of value. So we want that to be a standard that we want everybody that goes near a chat board or voice assistance to understand that process and to be certified about that. So we see that as our big mission, right. So that's where we'll be heading five years from now. So we'll be a company offers certificates that offers training to pay for a certificate that offers assessments to see, you know, who can become that conversation designer and we'll be that country. And obviously, on top of that, we'll have a very large database of people that are qualified. We can connect to brands, et cetera. That's amazing. So so that's a division of it. I sort of see three problems. Conversation designers are solving like these. Just want to say you need conversation designed to unlock the potential of conversational IRA. So there's great advancements in A.I.. But nobody is getting the value from it. You need designers still unlocked a potential. So that's the big thing that drives us. And I see in general, like if you look at from a world problem or a world challenge, it's about advancing trust and communication between humans and. Well, that's going to keep us busy for a couple of years. Right now, the business problem that we're helping with is that companies are overinvested in conversationally technologies and they're not getting the value. So let's train some designers to know that she can directly get value from it and automate some stuff. These companies are looking to automate 85 percent of their interactions.
Amazing. Yes. I see a bright future in that direction. You're already doing a fantastic job. Recession is an academy. I also will add a link in the show notes.
Follow your course. I highly recommend to check it out. One last question before we finish. So let's say that I'm a designer. I want to get into the food of conversation design. Maybe I want to do a project with a client. Oh. Out to clients. So what kind of tools do things like free top tools that you think I must be familiar with? That's related to conversations. Is that the country that they can help clients with those tools?
Yeah, I think like you probably want to you need to have at least some understanding of how these technologies work. So we'll see. Sometimes we'll see designers come in and they understand they they come from such a design background that they've always been intimidated by the technology. But here it is important that you to understand what natural language understanding is and how that works and how these platforms are built around us. Right. What is the intent and what's identity, et cetera? Those are just things that you need to know. Otherwise, you're going to you're not going to have much confidence in you around those technologies. You need to be able to just really talk about that a little bit and get the thoughts and then see what works best for them to at least have a conversation around that. So that's already before you bring in anything yourself, that's just something they need to know, then it helps to have like a good prototyping tools. If you use both Mocker Bots society, I think there's more prototyping design tools out there now that you can use. We're never really sure which one to use. It's still tricky and it's a problem that hasn't really been solved yet. In a market, what's the best conversation designed to grow? It might be familiar with them and understand that. I think that's a big one. And I think it would make a good flowchart. Like, it's interesting because you'll have people like having a lot of your audience honestly more. You actually wax but will have very good copywriters. They've never had to create a flow chart. So there's like all these people that excel at one point aren't very good at the other. Right. So whatever you did at research, the other part of it, because some things like creating a flowchart for me, that's a no brainer. How to do that? For some people, it feels like rocket science. So it depends. Around a little. So that's why it's important to understand the broader nomics of the industry. So that makes it also easier for yourself to position yourself. Because if you're a very good writer and you can say, well, I'm actually conversational expert, so I'd focus more on tone of voice psychology about personality than you sort of create a sort of claimed your own land. If you're more the U.S. type will say what I zoomin most on the natural flow of the conversation. I'm not the best. Right. So you need someone else. I said, I think all these different tools. A lot of times, depending on the technology that your clients use, you can also insulate system tools. Right. Sometimes I go and like a wonderful design tool. But it's it's very difficult hand over to the engineers. And it's not going to work either.
So I guess the answer is that there's not really an answer. To be honest, I will tell you what my takeaways and I think I have a few from that answer. So if I'm trying to do some kind of Vemork for.
But I would use something that's exciting, right. I my iPod society. Those are two Toul out of a ocean of many tools that no one knows today, like which one is the best because it's relatively new field and the one like that one is better than the other because of different reasons. And that one is better than that or because of other reasons. Right. Yeah. So that's about those. The other take away, which I love, by the way, is to muster a flowcharts which I also think it's important in general in UTC. So many people are already supposed to be familiar with flowcharts. I like to use whimsical, which is also a no brainer to do. You know, you can just like it in there and it be really cool. You have also Mahle, which is your vision of the real thing.
I think the Volt, both of them really good to help you to do flowcharts. But flowcharts are not on the tools that create them, but the ideas. And you need to understand like information architecture basically to create a pretty decent approach. Yeah, those are my takeaways and I think that's a really good answer right away. And before him, he told me that the Facebook Messenger bots are not that great and you have your own tool. I guess it's not open for public, right.
Little do as companies reach out and use it. So I think more work was on question. Yeah. It's a very simple tool. It's quite useful. It's it's. We have lots of big client is running on it, actually. That's very campaign.
So got it. So it's only enterprise. So if you have enterprise listening, I could recommend them to use that tool. But let's say that I'm a freelancer that want to play with lead generation.
What would you recommend. Land land var type form active Schatz's one. And use most of it. I have use type form. We're doing some work with them. So we've got to explore that. And it was I was very curious and very simple to work with. Amazing. They've put a lot into it. So that would be my go to now. But I'm sure there's many others out there.
I will take that phone because I'm already a premium member and I didn't used to have this figured OK, and might not be able to to everyone yet.
But it is it should be there. So. OK, so I'll check it out once you know, you can say I'll publish it as a child or something and you will have different settings.
So amazing. So thank you for your fantastic interview. I had the pleasure and I'm looking forward to seeing you in the next event or what's your next speaking of it?
I'm not sure yet. I think we have New York. I know that there's going to be one to San Francisco, but I'm trying to find stuff a little closer to home. So maybe you support.
All right. So I'll keep follow and hopefully I could attend one of your next books.
Yeah. Should be fun. Thanks for having us.
Good seeing you, too. Thank you so much. And have a great day.