In this episode of Writers in Tech, Ben Davies, a Senior Content Designer at Klarna and co-founder of Tech Outcast, shares his experience transitioning from product management to UX writing. He emphasizes the importance of educating oneself about UX writing and being resourceful when working with other departments. Davies also discusses his process for standardizing terminology across different departments in a company and suggests using AI tools like Chad GPT to analyze archived discussions. Yuval and Ben discuss the potential uses and limitations of Chat GPT, an artificial intelligence tool for generating content. They caution against relying too heavily on it as a solution and emphasize its usefulness in brainstorming and refining ideas. The conversation also touches on the importance of advocating for UX writing as a discipline within tech companies, despite recent layoffs impacting the industry. Towards the end, they mention Tech Outcast, a new community focused on offering content design services to companies through freelancing and consulting. Ben, a content designer, enjoys working with early stage startups and solo entrepreneurs to help them put together their first version of products. He believes in the importance of combining UX, product management and marketing to create value propositions that resonate with users. Ben founded Tech Outcasts as a community for talented people who feel like outcasts in the tech industry due to homogeneity in backgrounds and approaches. To land a UX writing gig right now, Ben advises contractors or freelancers to figure out their unique perspective before seeking out companies they'd like to work with directly rather than relying on traditional job boards.
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00:00
It's a fairly new discipline, but it has been out there for a good few years now. I think even if you haven't worked directly with the UX writer, you will have heard the term before. If you are Senior in Tech, you should take the time and the onus on yourself to go and educate yourself about it. This is Writers in Tech, a podcast where today's top content strategists, UX writers and content designers share their well kept industry secrets.
00:31
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Writers Intech, a podcast that brought you by the UX Writing Hub. Our goal is to help you with everything UX Writing, content design, help you to get into the field or to better at the field of UX Writing. We bring industry experts, industry leaders, the best minds in this community to share their thoughts, ideas, processes and so on. Today we have awesome Ben Davies, which is a person that is a really amazing leader in the industry. He co founded the Tech Outcast, which is a community and consultancy helping people and companies with content. We will talk more about that later. They are Senior Content Designers at Clarna and also a mentor at the Uxwinning Hub, which is the Uxworthy Academy program we run. Shout out to the Uxworthy Academy. Hey, Ben. How are you?
01:33
Hey, all good. Thank you very much for the intro. You sum up my experience and background better than I can, I think.
01:40
My pleasure. Okay, first thing first. I know that you worked as a product manager in your previous career life and now you're focusing more on content related things. You are based in London and so tell me more about this transition from moving from product management and into UX Writing, basically.
02:02
Yeah, sure thing. It's maybe a bit of an unusual background for UX Writer or content designer to make the switch from product management. I know, certainly I've heard of a couple of content designers going the other way and becoming product managers. In my case, it was a very natural thing. I think when I started working ten years ago now, I was working as an editor, that's what we called it. Actually it was doing content design, so we just didn't have the term yet. I started out doing content design, and I transitioned into product management. Because, to be quite honest, I was getting frustrated at a lot of the decisions I saw product managers were making. I thought, I have ideas, too, and I'd love to test these out and actually be more actively involved, which is why I got into product in the first place.
02:43
At this time, I was actually working in some Berlin based companies. What happened was I would be the kind of token English native on the team and so I would then also be the person responsible for creating all the English content. Even as a product manager, I was then doing kind of all the UX writing for the English versions of the product I worked on. I think it was in 2017 that I went to a conference hosted by Google and I met a UX writer for the first time. That's where I learned, oh, this is a thing. There are people now who are focusing on this full time. There's a lot of value in this. I thought, if I had the scope to focus on this full time, what would I do? This would be amazing, rather than it just being part of my product management responsibilities.
03:28
That's why a couple of years ago, I quit working in product and transitioned to being a full time content designer. And I have had my own consultancy. I've worked with over 30 startups and solo entrepreneurs around the world, helping them with very early stage product strategy and content for their ideas. As you mentioned, I now work at Klarna, where I lead content design for one of the shopping teams.
03:52
Let's ask them Klarna. For those of you who are not familiar with Klarna, it's a huge company, focusing, by the way, focusing on, I think, ecommerce.
04:03
Right?
04:03
Type of ecommerce, smooth shopping and so on.
04:06
Exactly. It's kind of banking in some markets. Payments, of course, I think by now, pay later is what Klan is best known for. And then shopping as well.
04:14
Awesome. I know that you also did this type of transition where you started as a freelance working, doing contract work for Klana, and then transitioned into a full time role. Do you have any tips for people that would like to do something like that? How did it work for you? Basically?
04:33
Definitely. I think in my case, when I joined the company, this was before they were Klana. It was a company that was acquired by Klana a month after I started contracting for them. They were very interested in UX writing support. It was refreshing, actually, to be approached by a client who were really aware already of the advantages of having UX writer. They had a very clear idea of what they wanted me to do, which was brilliant, because that's not the case for a lot of clients as a freelancer. I came in and I did an audit of all of their products and put together style guidelines. The first iteration of their UX content style guidelines, and it very quickly started building where, as a contractor, you start working for a set period of time. So it was a couple of months. I started to get ingrained in the product team's rhythms.
05:18
I started to attend their stand ups. I started to have weekly syncs with them, and it became a regular thing. Eventually it felt right to transition to full time. I'm very grateful to have had that opportunity. It's been very interesting to see how an acquisition works as well. Going from this small company and joining a big company like Lana, I think in my case, one of the things that helped was also making sure that I was producing a lot of resources for the team to use so that even outside of the immediate product team I was working with, others could see the value that I was bringing to the organization. One example of this was for the style guidelines. Rather than just do these in a Google Doc, I made a figma component library with all kinds of micro copy contexts. We had a different page for error messages, titles, calls to action, all different contexts.
06:06
I did annotated examples from across all their products to show you how to write good content for each of these. We use this as a space to collect good and bad examples of practice for each microcopy example as well. That started to get shared around the business and other people from marketing, product marketing as well. I think that really helped me become ingrained in the broader team as well. I think when you're a freelance content designer, often it's hard to have that kind of contact outside of just designers. In my case, it was really helping make those resources. That I think is why I was unable to transition to full time.
06:41
So that's great. If there is like one tip that I took from this also was being very resourceful and helping people in different departments so you would attract them to your craft and not only doing the audits and the things that people told you to do, like being very proactive.
07:01
Exactly. I think it's fascinating with UX writing in particular because there are other ways we can collaborate with other teams that might not be so obvious on the surface because we often are situated within product and design. So, for example, when I made contact with kind of the marketing team, we then realized there would be a collaboration opportunity on naming. We joined Klana, we had to look at the naming of our product to fit within the Klana offering. That was something that we actually cold together. That was a product marketing and UX writing collaboration. There have been other projects like documentation. For example, the support team were looking at documentation, how they had vast amount of docs. One of the things that I'm good at as a content designer is organizing information in a logical way. We teamed up there again and I designed a taxonomy workshop for them to organize the documentation.
07:52
There have been lots of other examples actually for collaboration that are quite natural for me as a content designer that may not have been so obvious.
07:59
That's awesome. And tell me more about the process. Okay, so the company you started working at was acquired by Clara, which is a huge company, and then you need to kind of match the terminology so the naming of the stuff would be consistent and so on. I think even you're not acquired by a company, this is something that you need to do in your company, being consistent across departments about how to name stuff and how to approach different areas of the product. How do you even start doing something like that?
08:32
Yes, it was a very big task, especially because were acquired by Planner soon. I think, fortunately, in our case, a lot of the research I had been doing into things like style guidelines and how we should approach naming from a UX perspective. What makes a good product or feature name had been inspired by Klana because that had been seen as kind of a really good example in the industry that this company gave me when I joined. We joined Clara, I thought okay, good. It's one that I've already been looking at. Actually, a lot of the guidelines I've been designing fit with Klana as well. I think when we then joined Planner, it was very important at the beginning not to just rush in and start to make changes and say, okay, Klana's got a name there that looks like this. We should copy that. Klana is so big that it's not possible.
09:20
There's many different product areas. For the first month, I spent a lot of time just talking to people from across the whole business. I spoke with product managers, designers, other UX writers, product marketers from across the whole organization to get an understanding of how they had approached these things historically at Klana and what the current state was that. Also, let me see a couple of areas in Klana that needed improvement as well. With things like naming process, there are a couple of different approaches to naming. I thought, since I'm going to be doing this for my team, maybe I can come up with an approach that would work for everyone. It's really important to take that time first, just to speak. Also, never underestimate the value of spending a lot of time searching through the Slack archives. I would search naming, for example, and take a look at all the conversations that had gone on around naming a lot of the public channels in the past, which let me see also the kind of feedback people have been getting on past naming projects as well.
10:14
It was really important to spend that time gathering all that information and then designing a process. Once I'd done that, the process wasn't very quick. We spent three weeks intensely really going through and renaming everything, but absolutely necessary to say that time.
10:29
That's amazing. I love the tip that you had about going through archived and older Slack channels and discussions.
10:36
Yeah, it's searching for specific terms. Also, for example, with the UX writing channel and Planner going back to you can jump to the beginning on Slack and seeing the kinds of discussions that happen historically as well. I think in bigger organizations as well, you get a lot of resources that are shared that then aren't kept centrally, just the nature of how people work. It lets you discover a lot of these things.
10:56
I wanted to say that we do talk at the Yukon Academy about something called conversation mining, like analyze discussions of others, like users or other people as a resource. Before this conversation started, you told me that you tinkered with different ideas around artificial intelligence and AI and so on. I found a really cool way to kind of automate a lot of stuff related to analyzing words and discussions using generative AI. Just a tip for the people listening, you can throw in those archived discussions into Chgpt if your company allows you to do so. I know that there is some governance and privacy issues right now, but if you can use Chad GPT throwing the conversation into Chgpt and write a prompt like, can you give me the way people named Death? Or what isn't the most highlighted pain point described in this conversation? Or what is the keywords that are used the most in this conversation?
11:57
It's really interesting to use AI as a tool to analyze existing data, specifically words, because it's the easiest thing could do with a word processor. You can just copy and paste it and write a prompt, analyze the conversation. One of the biggest issues with JGPT, for example, is that it invents the wheel sometimes where it's just talking bullshit with confidence, which is not that great.
12:22
This is a really good way of phrasing it actually what's that talking bullshit with confidence is a really good way of phrasing. It actually reminds me of this morning, I was chatting with a colleague, Annalie Tinworth, who also works at Karna, and I think were talking about how persuasively wrong was, how were putting it. Chat GPT can be. Yeah, bullshit with confidence, it works exactly.
12:45
I wonder what will be a cool way in the future to automate that type of research and see if we could maybe do it faster somehow using artificial intelligence. Sorry for the background noises. I would say it again, but I would say that I wonder how we could use artificial intelligence in the future to do this type of resource gathering and challenges when doing a huge task like the one that you did and talking about generative AI, I would ask what's your take on that as a senior UX writer? And yeah, what's your take?
13:22
Big topic. Big, big topic. It's something we're very interested in at Klana as a group of content designers as well. We've been looking recently. I think one of the first use cases that comes up for chat GBT in the UX industry is, oh, we can use it for UX copy and UX content brilliant. I think there are discussions that go on and it makes it sound like it's replacing the skill set of a UX writer or content designer. I've seen some individuals getting pretty worried that we're going to be replaced and our roles will get completely automated. I think personally, no, that's not going to happen. Not concerned about that. I think what will happen is we could get replaced by people who become very adept at using this technology and leveraging it. I think I have some concerns about Chat GPT when it comes to using it for generative output.
14:09
I think one thing I've noticed is a tendency to rely on it as a solution, as a kind of magic wand that generates content from nothing. I'm going to quote a law of physics here, I think, which is not something you do often on the podcast for UX writing. I think it's like material can't be created or destroyed. Same with content. Content cannot be created from nothing. When you are getting an output from Chat GBT, that content is coming from somewhere. We don't always know where it might be coming from. Your own prompt. I think that's where a lot of the things you've been sharing on social media, for example, look at how the language used in your prompt then inspires the output, which is really important thing to understand. It comes off, of course, from pre 2021 Internet corpus. It might come from web pages you reference.
14:53
I think that's why with Chat GPT I think people need to remember that this content does come from somewhere and not to use it kind of as a magic solution. I think it's really good for brainstorming and for come up with ideas, especially for placeholder content in UX contexts. I know I certainly have times where I get writer's block and when you have to write a string, you've got a very tight character limit and you just have no idea how to go about it. It's great for that. And I think that's definitely one tip. I'd have set a couple of simple parameters, things like character limits. It really does deal with those very well. Don't just create one variant, ask for ten variants. Ask for 15 variants as well. See the whole list and get inspiration. I think the other really important thing that I think is powerful with Chat GPT is refinement.
15:40
This is something I don't see a lot of people doing, but the fact that if you get a list of ten variants and you don't like them, you can ask for ten more and you can give it an instruction to adapt them. I really like using it to play with tone, for example. I get ten variants that don't sound very exciting. I might say, can you give me ten more? Meeting the same requirements with a more playful tone, and it does that. That will then kind of give me ideas as well for the final solutions I choose for content in UX contexts. I think there's a lot of potential in the industry. I think kind of to sum up my view, though, it's just about being cautious with how we use it as a tool to augment what we do, especially as content designers, and not as a solution to replace skill sets, if that makes sense.
16:24
I couldn't agree more. Using it as a tool to amplify your work and you say people shouldn't be frightened that they're going to be replaced. That's good. To be honest, I don't have a solid opinion about either. Like, one hand, I see the output of JGPT and I'm like, okay, so this is a tool. It doesn't give me the solution. I wonder if one day currently it can't replace it. I wonder if one day it will.
16:50
It's interesting. I was speaking again with a colleague. We both have experience from localization. We were speaking about machine translation, which obviously has been around a couple of decades at this point. When it was new, it's very exciting that you could plug something into Google Translate and have that in a different language. The thing is, now, a couple of decades into 20 years after this technology became broadly available, I don't think anyone would in their right mind think, oh, it's okay just to use Google Translate to translate things, and it's going to be good enough quality, especially in UX contexts. I think we will have time to reread stuff that has been badly translated and you can tell, and it's very off putting for the UX. Certainly I think there's parallels with the localization industry and what's happened. I think what that also highlights is even if these solutions become really good, there are really good tools out there for machine translation.
17:38
Now, there are some languages, maybe that Alexa Kick, quite similar to English, for example, where you can get pretty good sounding results, but then the focus becomes on the processes surrounding this. So what do we need to input? How do we design that input? With Chat GPT, for example, you're now seeing all these job descriptions for prompt designers, I think it's called, and I read those and I think, oh, it sounds like a content designer's role. It's all about how we design that optimal prompt. There's also then the QA process, what you do with the output after. Rather than just lifting it, using it directly, which may be possible at some point, it's going to take a long time to get there, but how do you treat that output and what do you actually do with it? Maybe in the case of Chat Gbtsvl, not trusting it, blindly, trusting it with a pinch of salt, thinking critically about it and maybe using it as inspiration or adapting it to suit your needs.
18:25
What do you think about the current tech layoff that happened? I saw, to be honest, some kind of a change lately where I saw more companies hiring for more content design and new exciting roles and I really hope that we will see more of these growing in the future. But there were a massive tech layoff. Many companies hired many content designers because they could and they had some extra cash. Once they found out that they don't really need it because they need, I don't know, to get profits instead of more revenue, they decided to cut the role of the content designer. We've seen it in different companies, I think in Facebook, like Meta Shopify, one of the companies that I've seen. What's your take on the tech layoffs and do you feel like we're going to see more, like less demand for UX writers in the next future or more demand based on your opinion?
19:20
Obviously, it's a really tricky question. I think in my opinion, it's all very bleak at the minute. The job market in particular, you're seeing a lot less opportunities. I think. I've also noticed that the opportunities that are out there are all looking for senior individuals with a lot of experience. Especially when you've got then a lot of junior people coming into the industry, it's already been difficult for them to break into it and now it feels almost impossible. It does feel very bleak at the minute. I think. Unfortunately, with content design, with UX writing, we're still in 2023 in a time when a lot of people don't understand what we do. I think we all know that we have to spend a lot of time advocating for ourselves in two ways. Firstly, for the value we can bring and why we're hired in the first place, and then secondly, for how people should work with us.
20:09
Personally, I think it's unacceptable in 2023 that there are still senior people in tech who don't understand UX writing and maybe even more broadly don't understand UX. It's a fairly new discipline, but it has been out there for a good few years now. I think even if you haven't worked directly with UX Writer, you will have heard the term before. If you are senior in tech, you should take the time and the onus on yourself to go and educate yourself about it. There's a ton of resources out there as well and unfortunately I think there's a lot of people who still don't do that and they expect us to be the ones to advocate for ourselves. It's been my experience as well, not in my current position in Klarna, but with other clients, for example, that when you then get the people who need the explanation about what you do, it's then an ongoing task.
20:55
They don't necessarily listen or take into account how you want to work and how you should be involved in processes and it becomes very tricky. It's time for then layoffs, I think content design can sometimes be seen as a nice to have, especially when it's more senior people on the product and technology side who are making the decisions. That shouldn't be the case at all in my opinion. I think what these companies are going to find is then gaps compared with companies that do invest in content design and UX writing resource. I think increasingly when I use kind of products it becomes very clear which companies do have people with these skill sets on their teams and value. This I think what I hope is happening at the minute is a kind of change in UX as well because I'm certainly noticing the conversation shifting away from how can we explain the value and what we're doing to hold on.
21:46
It's kind of unacceptable that we're still having to do this. There's a lot of resources out there. I think the shifting conversation will be very interesting as well. I'm optimistic that the situation will improve, especially towards the end of the year with layoffs. I think there's probably some element of a reaction to the change in working over the pandemic as well. I think a lot of companies hired and expanded teams very quickly without a clear remit for a lot of people in their roles and unfortunately this is the result. I'm hopeful towards the end of the year layoffs will slow down and there'll be growth and there'll be opportunities.
22:17
Again amen for that. I still feel like six year after starting doing this thing that now more than ever we still need to be a voice for this community, educating companies just like we did for the past six years. Why UX writing is important for your business, how it can move the needle for a business, why content still improves, why in the time of generative AI, good content is even more important. Because now people have their bullshit. Detectors of bad content. The only thing that will be noticeable through all of the noise that exists right now would be the better content. Our role as content people obviously is to educate the next generation but also to build the next generation better future just like we did. I think we did a great job in the past few years. It was very challenging in 2017 to make statement about why UX writing is important for your company.
23:23
It was mostly like hey, can you put some words in this screen? Now we got into a better position where we have teams of writers working on very complicated products. Companies understand the value of it, but we shouldn't rest, we should still promote it and the idea of it. And that's the next thing. I would like to talk with your community. You talk first of all, what is Tech Outcast, which is a community that you've co founded?
23:54
Yes, we're very new, we're just starting up and it was great. You already noticed us I think on LinkedIn. Basically Tech Outcast is me taking what I've been doing as a contractor and freelancer and kind of formalizing it . Especially you were asking about layoffs. I've had quite a few friends recently who have lost their jobs in various companies including Meta and rather than looking for the next full time position they're considering things like contracting freelancing. I thought now is actually the perfect time to take what I've been doing as a freelancer offering content design as a service and create a community. We're planning a couple of different columns to this. So first is obviously consulting. Personally I find great satisfaction in working with very early stage startups, even solo entrepreneurs who have ideas of the kind of products they would like to do and engaging with them at that stage.
24:45
I think it's quite rare that you get someone who is at that very early stage and says oh, I want to consult a content designer but there are folks out there who do come to me for that help and we review the product together. We look at the value that they want to create. We then start to look at things like messaging and how might be the best way to communicate this with the market. I think what I can then do as a content designer for these very early stage companies is help them put together the first version to test out to really quickly see if actually their idea is needed in the market and whether they're going to communicate in the right way. I think that's going to be something we do. We're also, as a community very much at the intersection between UX product and marketing.
25:24
I find in any content design role I'm in it's kind of inevitable that there's also going to be elements from product management, product strategy and product marketing that come into play. It's necessary to understand kind of how product managers put together their roadmaps, how features are decided upon and prioritized, how value propositions are designed and how USPS are decided on which come from all of these different disciplines. We're really kind of holistically combining all of this in one space. The other part of Tech Outcast is community and this relates to why we're called Tech Outcasts in the first place. I think there shouldn't be anyone in Tech who feels like an outcast in 2023. Unfortunately you look out there and there's still a lot of well the tech industry is still very homogeneous and I'm not just talking about things like in terms of gender, ethnicity, sexuality.
26:15
I think it's also in terms of the backgrounds people have, the approaches they take to their work, their ways of working, the types of experience they bring. I think it's still very homogeneous in a lot of these places. I think that leaves a lot of really talented people getting into tech and then feeling like that maybe it's not quite the right thing for them or they don't have a place because they don't fit with this. I certainly had that feeling a lot. Kind of impostor syndrome. I know it's spoken about a lot and I know a lot of friends you had. We want this to be a place for kind of celebrating these differences and doing what we can to kind of change tech culture as well. This is something I see with the kind of mentorship of the UX writing hub as well. You get all these fantastic individuals who want to join UX writing and they come from so many different backgrounds.
26:59
I've worked for students who have kind of backgrounds in film and journalism and education and the perspectives they bring to UX are so interesting. For our industry it's kind of essential to have this diverse range of approaches and individuals with different backgrounds. We want to foster kind of a culture where this is celebrated and things aren't just remaining so homogeneous.
27:24
Ben, this sounds like a great idea. Fantastic way of community building, gathering all of the tech outcasts together. If you want to ping ideas to me for this idea, feel free. I think it can be a really cool conference. Also, I know that you're working on a podcast of yourself. If you ever need some help to build this thing, just let me know.
27:47
I'm absolutely said we're going to collaborate very soon, so we would happily be in touch with you about that.
27:52
The last thing that I would like to ask for the people that listen so we did talk about tech layoffs and finding an opportunity in New York's writing. You said that many people that you talk would prefer to go contract or freelance. What would be your tip for the people that listening to land a UX writing gig right now?
28:13
I think my biggest tip would be don't go the traditional routes to find jobs. I think there are a lot of job boards out there which are really great. You've got as well collated UX writing jobs which are fantastic. Specialized job boards can be very helpful. Unfortunately there's a lot of people who just focus on the big sites like LinkedIn for finding work and I think you're only seeing a fraction. I think in my experience as well with places like LinkedIn, a lot of stuff that's advertised there. It gets so many applications that it's very hard to hear back, I think, especially if you're looking for contract and freelance work. I'd recommend two things. Firstly is considering what is your exact perspective as a freelancer in the space. For me, for example, as a content designer offering freelance services, my unique perspective was that I would work with earlier stage companies.
29:03
I would bring elements of product strategy and product management to my approach. For some companies I would also bring elements from my localization background. I put together my first website, I emphasized these parts of my skill set as well and that was my unique perspective. I think firstly, figure out your unique perspective there. I'd also say if you're someone who's newer to this industry and you maybe haven't got so much explicit experience in a role with UX in the title or as a UX writer, that doesn't mean that you don't have applicable experience. I think even if you're coming from journalism or you're coming from film, you will have a lot of skills that could be your superpower. When it comes to working as a UX writing freelancer or a content design contractor, I think it would be a case of figuring out. For journalists, for example, it might be that you are an expert at distilling the very core of what is essential for users to know and communicating this directly.
29:58
If you're from a film background, it might be that you are an expert in crafting narratives, empathizing with characters, developing characters, and this is a skill you can then transfer directly to your work. I think that can all really inform your perspective as a contractor. Secondly, then, as I mentioned, these job boards, so places like LinkedIn for example, might not be so ill. Once you've got your perspective, you might have an idea of the kinds of industry or the kinds of company that you best could work with. Go and seek them out. In my case, I have a list of about 50 tech companies that I love. It ranges from companies like Duolingo to parcels I've worked at as well. I actively look at these companies websites for positions that are open for contracting work and often find things that aren't then advertised in other places.
30:46
There are other companies where I would come across their products and I'd think oh, I have something to say about this product. I think this is a really cool idea. There's something from my background that I think I could contribute here. I'm going to write to them even though they don't have anything advertised, share a couple of ideas and ask if they'd be open to talking. A couple of times I've done that and it has led to work. Rather than relying on job postings, go and find products that you have something that you think you could contribute. Find the people to write to, whether it's on LinkedIn or on Twitter and see if they're open to conversations. I think you'll be surprised that a lot of the time they are and it could lead to projects.
31:22
I love this tip and I definitely say this is definitely the UX writing academy way to be different, to do things outside of the box, to be proactive. Also to seek the companies that might work for you and reach out to people in those companies and pitch them your ideas and be very active and proactive and so on. So this is a great tip. Thank you for that, Ben. And also, thank you for your time.
31:49
Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure to chat with you.
31:51
If we will have to name this episode, this is a question we ask every guest. How do you think we could name it?
31:58
That's a really good question. I thought I needed to prepare that beforehand. I think we've covered such a range of topics about the industry. I would call it the state of UX writing 2023.
32:09
Sounds really good. I think we can go for it. Thank you, everyone, for joining another episode of Writers in Tech podcast brought to you by the UX Writing Hub. My name is Yuval Keshe. I'm the founder of the UX writing hub. Check our website. We have a lot of content over there. Blog posts, free courses, paid courses, this podcast and others. If you find this episode useful for you, please pass it to your team so they could listen to it. All of the aspects of community building, all of the aspects of why you should invest in UX Writing in your company. Let's say that you have a product manager or a boss that are not convinced yet. Pass it to them. Let them listen to it. I think it might be useful. Thank you, Ben. Thank you so much for being here today. It was amazing to talk to and it was great.
32:52
Thanks.
32:53
Take care. Thank you.