Kate Garner is an English teacher turned full-time UX writer at Coursera. She's also a language lover with experience in copywriting, editing, SEO, and creative content development. Her Master's of Communication in Technology degree helped turn her into quite the masterful communicator. In this episode, we look at what UX writing at Coursera is all about. Kate shares her love of the product and why Coursera is such a great online learning platform. Listen to this episode to learn about: — How writers and designers fit into Coursera's structure — Overcoming the challenges of being a first time UX writer — Her first-hand experience as a UX writer, what tools she uses specifically for UX writing, and other tools of interest that are available — Coursera's procedures, strategy, and team structure
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You can read more about Kate’s work here:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kategarner7189/
But it's figuring out the best process for designers, writers, pm's in order to get that content strategy early on. But not so early that there isn't room for design changes.
This is Writers in Tech. A podcast where today's top content strategists, UX writers and content designers share their well-kept industry secrets.
Today, we're talking with Kate Garner, a senior UX writer at Coursera, which is a fantastic platform for courses, I'm familiar with it for years now, this is maybe the first, when you Google it and when you look for online courses or when I had to look for online courses because I figured out that I'm not going to get my education from official places, but from the Internet. So that's the first place to pop up and super quality courses. And I'm very excited to have you today. Hey how are you?
I'm great. How are you?
I'm pretty good. It feels like both of us are. We have the situation, but we're getting the best out of it.
Yes, yeah, the only thing you can do.
All right. So first of all thank you for coming today. I want to Speak with you a little bit today about your journey of becoming a UX writer. And how is it to be a UX writer in different product teams within Coursera? So we're going to talk here about that later on. So, first of all, how did you got into UX writing?
So I took kind of an interesting path to get here. And it was definitely not what I had planned. I hadn't even really planned to become a writer in technology. I started out teaching English. First I taught at the high school level, then went to the middleschool level. So I got to really refamiliarize myself with some of the small elements of the language that over the years you forget about. So in order to teach it, I obviously had to become very familiar with the language. And in that sense, I also had to become very familiar with communicating complex ideas in a simple way so that kids could follow along. They wouldn't get confused by instructions and everything. And in a strange way, that sort of led me on the path to becoming an UX writer, because that is a pretty key element of the profession as being able to communicate complex ideas in a simple way. After teaching, I went in to copywriting for a bit and I was doing long form copy writing for some medical companies and then got a job at a company called Westhead, which is a nonprofit for education. And from that, I realized that I really wanted to stay in education, if not in the classroom but elsewhere. So I found it an opening at Coursera and very happily accepted that job.
That's amazing. How long have you been in Coursera?
I was a contractor there for a year, and now I've been there full time for about six months.
Nice, congratulations.
Yeah, thank you.
For your time, it's a really cool transition and fun transition as well. Interesting, because if feels like that you had your path in education for a while.
Yeah.
And they love the idea of simplifying the message for children can be very similar to simplifying ideas for users. Mainly if you're talking about education right now.
Right. Yeah. So when you're speaking to users online, it's important, obviously, not to talk down to them, especially on an education platform like Coursera where its people pursuing higher education for the most part. But it's also important to understand that people who are there're English might not be their first language and they could be using the platform in English and not necessarily be familiar with all of the nuances of the language. And it's important not to use language that could be simplified if you can say it in a more simplistic manner, say it in that manner so.
That's so, right now it's cool. So how many writers are there on the team and how many? For example, what's the attributing with the writers and the designers for the?
So I am currently the only UX writer on staff. So there are copywriters in marketing and growth who are fantastic to work with. And luckily, I work with designers who are very skilled, skilled enough that they have a pretty good idea of what they want the writing to say in their designs. So I'm not getting a lot of empty designs that are just filled this with information that you think people should know. So that helps to overcome a huge obstacle in that there's a pretty clear message, a pretty clear idea in mind by the time I get the designs. That's cool. Yeah. But currently I am the only UX writer on staff. So I get to work with all of the different teams, which is a very unique position to be in. But I think it has been really educational and very helpful for me to get an understanding of all of the different tones that we're trying to get across to the different types of users and understanding how and why you have to speak to different users in a different way. So, for example, we have we have learners who go onto Coursera to take a course just because they feel like it or that, you know, they're interested in some subjects, but it's just basically for personal development. With those users, we can speak in a way that is not quite as formal. We can be a little bit more playful with language. We can celebrate their accomplishments in a pretty big way because this is something that they are taking time out of their schedule to better themselves in this way. On the other hand, we have learners who are pursuing a bachelor's and master's degree. And with those learners, they're in a very stressful situation and trying to pursue that higher education. So we're very empathetic to that. But at the same time, it's not our place to tell them, hey, you did a great job on this. If they finish an assignment, that is something that the partners, the university partners want us to stay a little bit more formal with those kind of learners.
That's really cool.
Yeah.
So right now, you talked about two completely different types of users. And when you approach a project, for example, or even when you start to define those kind of users, I guess, like in the DNA of the company, they're already well aware to the fact that this user, and that users. But I'm trying to imagine like, do you do some kind of a user journey or you have, like, documented research with that of each journey. Is it like a weekly conversation about how can we speak to that users or those users? How does it work exactly with the writing process?
So as far as the audience goes, understanding the audience, it's largely the teams that I'm working with kind of help to indicate what the tone is, is going to be, because teams who are working with administrators, instructors, things like that, they have a pretty clear understanding of the tone that needs to be used. And so I've adopted to that as well and been able to take into consideration the kind of language that the audience is gonna be familiar with. And yes, the designer does a user journey at the beginning of a product to give us an idea about where the ideal journey that the user could take if everything goes correctly. These are the messages that they will receive, as well as the less ideal where there's an error message that might pop up or they might need to get redirected to another part of the page. So all of that helps me to understand what sort of tone I should have at those different stages, because if someone has made it all the way through, the tone is going to be very different from if somebody gets stuck or there's an error or they have to go back to the beginning for whatever reason. And I have to be understanding of people's emotions at those different times.
Right.
So you don't want to speak to, if possibly frustrated user in the same way that you would speak to someone who is getting through something very easily. But the user journeys, end user maps are done for the most part through the design team, and they do a very thorough job ahead of time to give me an idea of what directions need to be taken.
That's great. So it feels like the right mission would be to adapt to different, because of Coursera to different product teams and the way that they understand the user. And based on that, to create its own voice and get the information from those teams that are probably really familiar already with the journey they've been working on it for a while. That's really cool.
Right, yeah.
I have a question about testing. So you have a chance to think about some kind of a, maybe a button or maybe even a messaging on a page or something like that. And to see on the data like what's the convergence or where the users get stuck and then solve it with different copy or even tests two different copies and see what's converge better and implement it in the product. Is there something like that?
Yeah. So we do AB testing for the products and that includes copy. So we'll get an idea if people responded better to this copy that they did to this copy. And one of the cool things about the research team is they actually have ways to tell where people are clicking on the page. So they're clicking on something that is not a clickable item. Then we have a way of knowing that, and either we need to adjust the designed to make it so that all of these people who are trying to access that information at that point can access it or we can make it more clear where they access that information. So all of that takes place in the research and development phase, which is very, very helpful for me. And one thing that I kind of had to figure out and adjust to is that my expectations of what would work best do not always work best. And that is something that you just have to kind of let your own ego go when you're working in a team like this. Because if it's not your words, then that just has to be okay for, because regardless, the UX writer is going to be a very integral part of the content strategy and the design. And so even if it doesn't end up being your exact words on the page, because people didn't respond as well to that, then that's okay. It's what's best for the users and it's what's best for the company.
Right. If the data shows that it works.
Right.
We should listen to the data.
Yeah. And there's been a few times that that's been the case where I went in thinking this probably would resonate better with users than the current messaging that exists. And it doesn't. And that's fine. You just kind of adjust in the future and make sure that you're using language that the users have periodically responded well to.
Right, we can always try to put our selves inside their shoes, but sometimes they are what they and.
Exactly.
We could just maybe guess what's going to work. So that's a good thing for the team. I would love to know. Let's talk a little bit about too, so if you work with your design teams, they use UI design tool such as Figma or something like that?
Yeah. So Figma, InVision, we just recently started using Miro as well.
That's a cool tool, I like it.
Yeah, it is a cool tool. I have, I think I just got so comfortable with Invision that that is still my favorite product. But I always am willing to adjust to what the designer prefers because they're the ones who are having to put the images together and it's where they're more comfortable. It's makes it easier for me to add notes or edit as they want, but it is whatever makes them most comfortable.
Right. That's true. When you want to communicate your writing and your screens or your projects, what would be the best way or process that you would choose? I guess it's different between different projects, right? But,
Yeah. Yeah.
What kind of go to do you have when you start a project and you want to communicate it in the best interests, like the most efficient way.
Yeah. So it depends on where they are in the process for projects that are just starting up. We generally have a collaborative Google doc that we can get ideas off of each other and write down sort of initial goals and purposes of that feature when there's a design that is has been created but the copy isn't finalized. Usually I'll use Miro, Figma or InVision and write my notes within that. And I try to provide for every design that they need copy for, I try to provide at least two to three options for copy that I think would fit that scenario.
That's cool.
Yeah, just to try to give, there's sometimes where, this is a tone we could use it if you wanted to be a little bit more playful or if you want to just make sure that the message is coming across very clearly and there are no questions. This is something that maybe isn't quite as fun sounding, but it's a clear way to get that message across and that allows the designer a little bit of room. So that is something that I always try to do when the design has been created. It is a lot easier for me to see how much room there is for copy and limit the character count that way. So, yeah.
That's cool. And what I'm understanding in the sub text right here is that the designers that you working with are very professional. And it's something that is really important because a lot of times UX writers in different companies need to educate the designers about not using play soldiers, not using the low (inaudible) zone, like right here what you mean and I will make the copywriting of that part of the screen. But if you're not going to have any context here, it would be very difficult for me as a writer to do the copywriting of this screen. And it sounds like that the designers that you're working with are very like they know how to do it or someone like you educated them to do it in a really great way. And I think it's a very cool thing.
They know what to do. It didn't take me coming in and educating them on that. They are all extremely professional and so talented. So I've been really, really lucky to work with these teams and they make my job so much easier. You know, when they have a clear idea of where they want the designed to go and they come to me with with that pretty clear idea. It makes it makes things so much easier and it makes the process really smooth.
What kind of books would you recommend for someone that want to get into the field of UX writing or want to know all about how to do it better?
There are two books that are specifically for you UX writing that I found extremely helpful. And one is Conversational Design by Erika Hall. And I think pretty much anything written by Erika Hall is gonna be a good choice.
Just enough research is my favorite.
Yeah. Yeah. So that book was really, really informative. And then strategic writing for UX by O'Riley has been a great one, too. What I really like about that book is it gives you several examples of three different types of companies and how their town changes. So one company that is very formal is going to have a different format of copy than this other company. That's kind of just playful and for fun. And it can show you how much of a difference the wording can make in the interface based on that company's tone. So that has been really cool to see actual examples of how UX writing plays a role in the design.
That's cool. Are there any more resources that you use together in inspiration in your work? For example, you have a new project right now and you want to see like references and stuff like that. How would you do that?
Yeah, so doing research of other companies is just in general is always great. There are a few companies that I just absolutely love their writing. Nerdwallet is one that I think that their writing is so great and accessible for, it's such a it's kind of an uncomfortable topic, handling your finances, especially for younger people. And they really have targeted their writing to a younger audience so that seems much more accessible. So that is one company that I really enjoy looking through their site and just seeing how they're communicating with learners. It's a really interesting way to do that.
Let's go and check it out. I'm not familiar.
Yeah,.
With their website that much. But I will definitely want to take it up now.
Yeah. Yeah. It's I mean, they do a great job with grammar. Graphics, writing and everything. So Nerdwallet. Yeah.
Nerdwallet, okay.
Yeah. And yeah I like to research other companies that people suggested have good Ux writing and or just if people have had a response to the writing in some way and they're not really sure why. That's always good to check out because sometimes it can be a negative response. Preferably either people are not really noticing how much writing is impacting their experience there or they are noticing, like, wow, this made it so much easier for me and so much more fun for me. The writing on the page should not be something that is an obstacle for people to overcome, so yeah.
And there's nothing more frustrating than when you want to perform some kind of an action and you're not sure what's the next step is going to be like or.
Yep.
What's the buttons going to do? Mainly if it's about like payments and checkouts and stuff like that it's like the most frustrating thing that can happen is that, i don't know someone charged me without me understanding exactly why and like what did I bought or something like that.
[00:18:08] Yeah. Yeah. And that's one of the areas where we're always really, really careful and make sure that the user knows that pressing this button won't force you to buy anything. So that is understandably one of the most stressful elements of a user experience, is the actual purchase of something. Right. So, yeah, that's something UX writers we have to be very, very conscious about the potential for confusion or stress around that part of the flow.
(inaudible) Other than that what it is there any more Websites that you can name the thing that have really exceptional UX writing or copywriting in general?
They're actually slack, which is that the communication tool that a lot of people use within their companies?
Their writing is amazing for, you know, even just within the program. It's very conversational and it makes you feel like you're talking to a person rather than to a robot. So they've done a really, really great job with their you UX writing.
Feels like they met so many different scenarios in the user dream.
Yeah.
Even when you want to send a message for a different time zones. So you have like the message of the user familiar with what you have that like the chicken that tells you wait.
Yeah, yeah.
You might do a couple in the middle of the night definitely.
Right. Right. Yeah. They did a great job.
I really that tool. That's a really good recommendation. So we're going to our last question here.
Okay.
I would like to know what are the biggest challenges that you have todays. Are you excited at the whole set up? What is the main challenges?
I would say the main challenge right now is being the first UX writer they've had on staff. And this is a relatively new career path for myself as well. I was in writing for a while before this, but it's figuring out the best process for designers, writers, pms in order to get that content strategy early on, but not so early that there isn't room for design changes. And so being able to collaborate in a way that is efficient is one of the things that I think we're just still working figuring out for having so many different teams and having one writer. We're doing everything we can to be as efficient as possible. But it can still cause confusion for designers, specifically if people have not worked with UX writers before.
Right.
So I'm always open to hearing people's experience with having more of a team and more of an established UX writing group, how their process works. Just because I think it's you can always learn from others who have a little bit more experience with the actual process. Beginning to end, including UX writing in the in the flow.
OK, cool. Thank you for that answer. And are you planning to hire UX writers soon for Coursera? Or it's not something that is on the table.
It is not on the table right now, no. But I'm hoping sometime in the future that we can have a little bit more of a content strategy team. Yeah, so I know a lot of people are very supportive of that idea. It's just kind of a matter of figuring out the best way to go about that.
Nice, whenever you're ready to share with me a link and I will share it with the UX writting community.
I will.
I would love to.
Yeah, I will.
Yeah. Thank you.
Okay. Okay. Thank you so much.
Yeah. Thank you so much.
You're welcome. If people would like to reach out and ask you a question, what would be the best place to find you?
Probably on LinkedIn to send a message on LinkedIn. That would be a pretty good way to do it.
Perfect. So theres a link in the show notes of the episode. That's about it. Have a great day. Have a safe (inaudible) I hope for going to be free from quarantine soon.
Yeah, yeah.
With you sitting in the sun in a chair and meet with friends and have fun.
That would be great.
Oh, thank you so much.
Alright, thank you. Have a good one.
Bbye.
Bye.